Historian and author Eric S. Singer joins Ola and Vin to talk about his forthcoming book: Oppenheimer and the Atomic Bomb, the young readers edition of AMERICAN PROMETHEUS: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer. Eric explains how the education system reinforces a militaristic, pro-nuclear worldview, and what teachers and everyone can do to change how history is taught.
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Exploring Untold Histories with Eric S. Singer
Join Olamide Samuel and Vincent Intondi as they dive into a thought-provoking discussion with historian and educator Eric S. Singer about his contributions to historical narratives, his forthcoming book 'Oppenheimer and the Atomic Bomb,' and the challenges of adapting dense historical content for young readers. Eric shares insights into the inadequacies of historical education, the importance of storytelling, and his inspiration for making history accessible and engaging for younger generations.
03:55 Eric's Journey into Historical Narratives
05:15 The Importance of Storytelling in History
10:11 Challenges and Rewards of Writing for Young Readers
13:54 Adapting American Prometheus for Young Readers
20:27 The Process of Historical Adaptation
27:32 The State of Historical Education Today
31:58 Eric's Inspirations and Influences
35:37 Addressing the Atomic Bombings in Adaptations
39:38 Future Projects and Final Thoughts
[00:00:00]
Ola: This is minds blown.
Untold History Trailer: Today we live in a military industrial surveillance state. We are assaulted on a daily basis with events seemingly disconnected from our past. But does our current behavior have its root? In our history, how did we get here?
From atomic tests in the desert of New Mexico to their logical end in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, from the election of 1900 to the election of 2000. I'm going to be judicious as to how to use the military. From American soldiers in the deserts of the Middle East, to the waters off the coast of Cuba, to our suburban living rooms, I invite you to Re examine our collective pasts, the events and people who make up our unlearned [00:01:00] history.
Ola: Welcome to another episode of Minds Blown, where we dive deep into compelling stories and thought provoking ideas that shape our world today. I'm your host, Olamide Samuel, and I'm here with my co host, Vincent
Vin: Ntandi.
Ola: And today we have a very special guest with us, someone who has made significant contributions to historical narratives in various mediums, from education to documentary filmmaking. We are thrilled to have Eric S.
Singer join us.
Vin: That's right. Eric is a historian and an educator with an impressive body of work. He holds a PhD in history from American university, my alma mater. We actually went to school together. He has a master's of education from the university of Vermont and a BA in public communication from American university as well.
And his two decade long career spans researching and writing historical narratives. Films and major brands for governments and educational initiatives and public history projects.
Ola: [00:02:00] And many of you might know Eric from his role as the principal researcher for the untold history of the United States, a 12 hour documentary series
to complement this groundbreaking series, Eric has also created the Untold History Education Project, which aims to connect teachers, community activists, and the general public with a wide array of historical teaching tools.
Vin: Eric is taught at the University of Baltimore, where he designed courses that explore deep and complex social issues.
And I wish I could have taken these classes. One was The Wire, Baltimore and the Urban Crisis, another is the History of American Sexuality, American Urban History, and Living with the Bomb, Social, Political, and Cultural Implications of Modern War. He's also published in The Nation, San Francisco Chronicle, Teen Vogue, The Baltimore Sun, and the New York Daily News, just to name a few.
Ola: Not to mention, he's also known for his work adapting historical books for younger audiences. [00:03:00] One notable project is his adaptation of the Untold History of the United States, the Young Readers edition. Currently, Eric is working on adapting Kai Bird and Martin Sherwin's Pulitzer Prize winning biography, American Prometheus.
The Triumph and Tragedy of Robert Oppenheimer. Which was the basis for Christopher Nolan's Academy Award winning film, Oppenheimer. The adaptation is set to be published in the summer of 2025.
Vin: It was truly a pleasure to have you here today, Eric, and welcome to Minds Blown.
Eric: Thank you. Thank you so much to both of you for having me.
You guys are doing great work.
Ola: Thank you so much. Really appreciate that, Eric. Really appreciate that. And I mean, it was you know, fascinating to read your biography and to dive into your background a little bit. And what I sense from your biography is that you didn't initially set out [00:04:00] to write young readers editions.
So, how did you get into this, , particular path?
Eric: It's a good question. Through a circuitous route. I started as a, as a high school teacher. And as, as Vinny mentioned I, I went for a master's in education very early in my career after I graduated college. And quickly thereafter jumped into, you know, teaching ninth grade.
And I was given a textbook by by district and the district wanted me to basically go through the textbook chronologically and teach it as, as so many people you know, have experienced you know, for better or for worse, I would argue mostly for worse. And at the beginning I sort of towed that line.
I. Followed the curriculum and bored the hell out of anybody and everybody who was sitting in front of me
Ben Stein - Bueller: In 1930, the Republican controlled House of Representatives, in an effort [00:05:00] to alleviate the effects of the, anyone, anyone? The Great Depression, passed the, anyone, anyone? A tariff bill, the Hawley Smoot Tariff Act, .
Eric: And I, but, you know, quickly thereafter, I realized that, you know, teaching history is really all about storytelling and the better story that you can tell the more, the more complex story, the more compelling story the more attention you're going to get.
And the better people are, you know, better people are going to understand the history and ultimately be able to make connections between that history and the issues that we're dealing with today. And the issues that in the case of ninth graders, you know, they're dealing with out in the hallways of their schools, or out in the, out in, out in the play fields, or.
You know, wherever they are with, with their friends and peers. So you know, young readers writing sort of, like I never, obviously, as you say, you know, I never [00:06:00] envisioned that I would go in this direction, but young readers writing sort of makes sense to me. And I, and I, and I wish that we were able to adapt more really interesting and important and seminal works of history.
You know, it's good to see that the public publishing industry is going in that direction.
Vin: Let's unpack that a little bit. You've been in you've done historical research. You've been writing in education, kind of all places and the work you've done kind of spans through the academic spaces, historical spaces.
How has, have these experiences has Did they influence you, or maybe they didn't, but I'm assuming they did, to go say, you know what, young readers is, path, this is the path I really want to go down, these are the books that I think are needed and I want to write, what, is there any influence there from your teaching background that kind of led you down that path?
Eric: Yes, and I think it really does go back to my frustration with the state of the [00:07:00] historical curriculum. And not just the state of the historical curriculum, but how we as a society, and as societies, have determined that history should be learned. It's not a chronological pursuit. It's not a pursuit of dates and names.
It is a, you know, it's a living, breathing organism. And when I was in high school, most of my teachers bored, bored me to tears as I, you know, was sort of describing earlier. I had one teacher though, who was fantastic. And this was in 1990. I guess it was, it would've been 92., But it was actually after we came back from winter break in 1992.
This teacher, he stands in front of the class and we're all sort of like, you know, brain dead from vacation and he's like, you know, something stupendous happened when you guys were on vacation you know, in the world and who knows what it was and nobody put their hands up, you know, everybody was just sort of like, duh, you [00:08:00] know, we're like out there in the suburbs and, you know.
, so finally, you know, after a couple of people made, made some stupid guesses or whatever, you know, he said, come on guys, you know, this is the fall of the Soviet union.
President George Bush: Good evening, and Merry Christmas to all Americans across our great country. During these last few months, you and I have witnessed one of the greatest dramas of the 20th century, the historic and revolutionary transformation of a totalitarian dictatorship, the Soviet Union, and the liberation of its peoples.
This struggle shaped the lives of all Americans.
It forced all nations to live under the specter of nuclear destruction. That confrontation is now over. The nuclear threat, while far from gone, is receding.
Eric: You know, you, you may not understand what, what really just happened here, but this was a momentous event in world history.
And the world's never going to be the same. And this guy, you know, he grew up living and breathing in the Cold War. [00:09:00] And, you know, to him, the Soviet, as an American adult, the Soviet Union was the enemy. And, you know, there was a very real threat at, at every stage of his, his life, almost every stage of his life of nuclear war.
Ola: Of
Eric: the possibility that the world might not exist. You know, we were, we were too young, quite frankly, to, to, to really understand that at the time, but, but that left a serious impression on me. You know, I was like, wow, this guy actually is, is teaching me something that's useful about the world. And.
You know, from, from then on, I was like, man, I really have to learn about how all this stuff happened. That's sort of, you know, it was, it was that sort of thirst for historical knowledge that, you know, ultimately made me want to be a teacher, but, you know, eventually sort of pushed me into the you know, into the world of, I want to get a PhD to really master this stuff.
You know, the, the young readers writing you know, it comes out of that, okay, yes, there's historical education, but so what? Like historical education in a vacuum is not going to mean anything historical [00:10:00] education, you know, you got to make it relevant You got to make it interesting. You got a you know, you got to really force people you know, especially young people To engage with the material
Ola: that's really really fascinating and I I really appreciate something you said there You know bringing my own experience in teaching into this conversation So I've had a very short sort of academic career.
And most of my teaching was at the postgraduate level. And I found a stark contrast between teaching postgraduates and undergraduates, how much more effort and intentionality was required to teach younger and younger audiences. And your primary audience, at least through your books is, you know, ninth graders.
And I can only imagine that it's an exponential. Jump in terms of the intentionality needed, and it requires a unique understanding of how their minds engage with such complex topics. So we would really appreciate if you were to give us like some of your insights into [00:11:00] how the minds of younger people work with regards to this complex topics.
Eric: So when, whenever I, I think it's, it's, it's about putting yourself in their shoes. And when I put myself in their shoes, I'm putting myself in my shoes. Circa 1995 or earlier. How would I have interpreted. information that I'm reading in a historical monograph? And the answer is that I wouldn't have interpreted it well.
I would have lost interest. I wouldn't, I, I, I wouldn't have understood some of the basic concepts. Like if somebody was talking to me about the concept of anti communism as a, you know, as a ninth grader, I'm not going to understand what that means quite frankly, because I'm not going to understand what communism means because nobody in most cases has effectively taught it to me.
So, you gotta go back to real basics. You have to really question even the things that you think that they're going to know, [00:12:00] and you have to describe them you know, not as if they are ten years old, but maybe, you know, as if they're like six years old. You have to acquaint them with what communism, you know, in that case, what communism is.
as a concept, the ideal of communism, how communism has been defined by other people who seek to vilify communists, for example, how communism, how communism has been defined by communists themselves, or by people who are accused of being communists themselves. And you have to tell stories and, you know, you've, you've got to really get into people's minds and explain their motivations and explain, you know, why they do the things that they do.
The question of why is so important.
Ola: You
Eric: know, when you wake up in the morning, you know, why, why do you go out and be an activist? What are you so pissed off about? Who are you fighting with? Right? These concepts of, of, of [00:13:00] adversity, you know, these are playground concepts, you know, concepts that really resonate with kids.
And you know, and the more you can, you, you really, you know, you've got to do a lot of a lot of descriptive work and a lot of show, not tell.
Ola: I, you know, I can really resonate with that because in a lot of conversations I have with like friends, family, you know relatives who were parents of toddlers or, you know, six year olds.
One thing they repeatedly point out is how many questions six year olds ask and how many of those questions are why. And it's just remarkably difficult to. You know, follow a conversation on if the person keeps asking you, so why this and why that? Because even as an adult, you really have to fundamentally rethink and re question your understanding of things.
So I can only imagine how challenging this is. And speaking of that challenge, you know, How does this define [00:14:00] the sort of projects that you decide to take on, such as American Prometheus? Like, how do you go about choosing what stories to tell and adapt next?
Eric: Well, in the case of American Prometheus, the book is masterful.
At describing Oppenheimer's childhood and you know, that was really, you know, I, I, I had read the book three or four times before I thought about going down the road of, of writing a proposal for a young reader's edition and the, you know, the way that they describe his childhood rock collection, for example, and how that ignited his, his future scientific career, you know, about how his grandfather just gave him this collection of rocks.
And said, this stuff is amazing. You know, you, you know, go and do something with it. And, you know, he did, he didn't, he didn't care about the, the individual [00:15:00] rocks and where they came from so much as, as, as how well they reflected and reflect refracted light. And that was an unintended consequence. So the book, it.
It was really, I would say that it's predisposed to become a Young Readers edition because there are so many opportunities for young readers to put themselves in the shoes of this really brilliant guy, and to ask questions about, you know, how the things that they're experiencing Now in their lives were similar to the things that he experienced when he was at, at, at those ages you know, so you're, you're really looking for a character or, you know, for lack of a better term, you know, an individual or a subject who is going to resonate with kids who kids are really going to understand.
And, you know, one of the most important things is. You know, you were talking earlier about how kids don't, you know, that they, there's just so many things that they don't [00:16:00] understand. Well, it's important for them to understand that the same was true for, for the, for other people, right? Like, Oppenheimer, there was a lot that he didn't understand from the very beginning all the way through the end, through the end of his life.
Oppenheimer: I feel that I have blood on my hands.
Eric: And he was asking questions constantly in his mind. And one of the devices that I've tried to do is sort of ask those questions and directly in the text so that, that kids can understand that, you know, it's not knowledge isn't preordained, you know, knowledge is, is, is something that is, that is a hypothesis really.
Kai Bird: I discovered at one point when we were writing the book, uh, that Oppenheimer's last secretary, I went to interview her and she told me a story about walking to work with [00:17:00] Oppenheimer one day and suddenly she, she hears Oppenheimer muttering to himself, those poor little people, those poor little people.
And he explains, well, the gadget we now know works at Trinity. It was a success and now it's going to be used. And most of the victims are going to be women and children and poor little people. So this is a very complicated guy who, who can feel the tragedy, and yet he's feeling like he has to do his duty to see the, see the end of the story as such.
Vin: Staying with American Prometheus and this, this new book you're adapting.
Is it that you then have to go to the original authors? Obviously, Marty is no longer with us, but you can go to Kai or Marty's family and say, I would like to pursue this project. What are the. Are the [00:18:00] publishers, how that works? Are they, is it kind of its own project or are they receptive to this idea?
. Where are you even begin that process? How does it start?
Eric: So to answer the last part first, I guess the publishers are receptive. To a degree, some of them are more receptive than others. When we first proposed the adaptation, we went to one editor at Penguin Random House and she rejected, she rejected the book out of hand.
She's her, her rationale was these books are just not, you know, they're not resonating. And then we went to, so we said, okay, you know, thanks for, thanks for letting us know. And then at that point, we're like, well, maybe she's right. So we started talking to other people. And ultimately, you know, we, we found we found a receptive audience.
We found an editor who really loved the idea and who thought that the book [00:19:00] could sell and who understood the rationale of, you know, that we were, the, the, the argument that we were trying to make about, you know, how Oppenheimer story was really going to resonate with young readers. I initially proposed the idea after coming off of writing the Young Readers edition of Untold History of the United States, because I realized, man, like, I love this stuff.
I'm, you know, I'm, I'm good at it. You know, I, and, and I think that with this movie coming out, because we just found out that, that, that the movie was, was going to be released, you know, it would really be a great corollary. It would, it would open up a whole other market for you know, for Oppenheimer's story.
And so, you know, I, through, , my dissertation advisor, Peter Kuznick, He connected me with Kai Bird, and Kai from the beginning was all about the idea. You know, he loved the idea. And then he connected me with Susan Sherwin you know, Marty Sherwin's wife, and she loved the idea. And she shared the idea with her son Alex, and Alex really was, you [00:20:00] know, You know, loving it too.
So, you know, from the very beginning, it was like there was an agreement that you know, that this was a worthwhile project and that this was something that, you know, was really going to, you know, get, get, get kids to, to, to much better understand the stakes of, of, of nuclear weapons. And, and, and the dilemmas that that Oppenheimer faced throughout his life to, to answer your, your sort of, you know, your, your central question there though, how do you, how do you start writing such a thing?
Man, it's really hard. And sometimes you just have to start by doing in this case, I went to Trinity and I, you know, the, the, the, the, the Trinity test is one of the, the best parts of American Prometheus. It's so well described. It's so action packed. It is the rising action is just so intense. And then when the bomb explodes, the reactions of everybody you know, who, who, who witnessed it were so profound.
And, you know, so, so I started writing you [00:21:00] know, nuggets. That was one nugget. Another nugget was really his childhood. You know, what are the things that, that are going to be exciting to kids, bombs exploding you know conflicts with teachers you know, having to give speeches in front of adults, right, the anxiety associated with that, which he did, I mean, he, you know, Oppenheimer you know, He was in many cases you know, a shy child, but ultimately like he rose to the challenge and presented about presented on his knowledge of of rocks and minerals to the rock and mineral club in, the upper west side in New York.
So ultimately, you know, you're, , you're picking that the parts that you think are going to resonate the best with kids. And then the most challenging part of it all is to glue it all together you know, with, with information that is both, you know, that's going to drive the narrative, but that's also going to be easy enough for kids to understand.
And that process is very, very difficult to describe. Sometimes you're sitting [00:22:00] there and something, you know, the thoughts just sort of like, you know, I don't know. It's a little bit like nuclear fission, maybe
Ola: perhaps closer to nuclear fusion these days. It's always out of reach. But you've described some.
Some very unique sets of challenges but also opportunities to get buy in and to get, you know, people sort of mission focused around the goal of adapting a story. And I just wanted to see if, for our audience sake, if you would be able to sort of juxtapose the challenges compared to, you know, Writing a book from scratch.
Eric: It's a good question. The, you know, the, the, the biggest question with an adaptation, at least in my mind is how are you going to do the original book justice? Can you do the original book justice?
So whereas if you're writing something from scratch, you know, it's it's a mound of clay, you know, here you've, you've got something that's [00:23:00] already been sculpted, and you've got to figure out how to develop a sort of, you know, a miniature sculpture that is going to have the same kind of form and function and propulsive energy that the original did.
So I mean, I'd say that in some cases. It's easier to adapt because you've got the, you know, you've got the framework there, you've got the, the larger story and, and you're able to, there's so many different points of reference that you can go back to and then you can sort of like develop new narrative from that's going to connect one piece to another.
Whereas with an original book, I mean, you got to start with the idea. I mean, is the idea compelling enough? You know, if you're writing a biography, is this subject compelling enough? You know, you gotta do the research. I mean, Marty spent, Marty Sherwin spent 25 years of his life researching the life of Robert Oppenheimer, and I think, you know, he probably would've spent 25 more.
You know, it, [00:24:00] it, if ultimate, you know, if he had it. You know, adapting a book is, A lot about just making sure that what you're doing, honors the original. And in order to, in order to have something, you know, an original, you have to pick the original that is worth honoring.
Vin: So staying with that honoring thing, is there this pressure for you to write by was there, is there this kind of thing of like, I don't read it. I need to check with them and make sure I didn't go off in a different path or like, I just wonder, because it's, it's. In a sense, your baby, right? It's your project.
But at the same point, it's being adapted from, from somebody else. And so I just wonder how that, if that kind of hangs over you, if that's a burden that you then have.
Eric: So I never conceptualized it as [00:25:00] my project. For me, it was always our project from the very beginning and, you know, Kai and I, Kai was extremely generous with his time, still is, extremely generous with his time, you know, we went back and forth over email, on the phone, about interpretations.
about ways to, you know, ways to describe certain aspects of Oppenheimer's experience. Kai was extremely helpful and motivational. He cares deeply about you know, making this right , for young readers. So, I, at every stage, was extremely concerned about whether or not what I was writing was going to do justice to the book.
Especially given the book's complexity. In some cases, you know, there were like six or seven page narratives that I had to boil down into a couple of paragraphs. And I would spend [00:26:00] days. You know, writing and rewriting and thinking and staying up at night, you know, sometimes way too late trying to figure out, you know, how I was going to piece certain things together.
Then the next day, you know, I would have a draft and then I would send Kai the draft and he would be like, you really want to add, you know, that you're missing something here, you really want to. You know, you really want to work this through a little bit and work it through a little bit and go back to him.
And then ultimately, you know, the most rewarding parts were when he would say, man, this is man, you really nailed it. Like, you know, if you really got the essence, you got to the quick of what we were really trying to, you know, to bring through. So, you know, it's, it is nerve wracking. This book won the Pulitzer Prize.
You know, the film that came out of it won the best picture. You know, is this going to measure up? You know, we hope so. I hope so.
Ola: That's a [00:27:00] ton of pressure, responsibility, but I think even beyond sort of the responsibility to the original work and, you know, sort of pulling back the conversation a bit to the broader picture, I think is the responsibility to your broader mission of sort of educating, especially the younger folk.
And you've, you know, spent a lot of time analyzing it. Looking at the strengths and the gaps in how history is taught today, especially to the younger generation. And we would like to know, in your opinion, where is education currently failing? You know, where is it succeeding? And how can we address this shortcomings?
Eric: Well, that's a big question. I think that we have allowed at least historical education to be hijacked by the corporate world. And you know, I think that you've got textbook companies and you've got tech companies [00:28:00] and you know they it's that's sort of a real concerning nexus, because, you know, you've got.
Who is developing the content for these books and for these modules, you know, these online modules,
Ola: you
Eric: know, increasingly, you know, these, you have content that is being derived from discussions with school boards. You know, across the United States, for example, and you've got some people on the school boards that are quite frankly, not qualified to be making decisions about historical content.
But they are you've got people who are not necessarily qualified to be writing textbook content. And, you know, but beyond that. It's not just the content. I would say that it's also the methodology. It's [00:29:00] that everything is so deductive when it comes to historical education, that, that it's always a, you know, a bunch of, of, of facts that need to be consumed.
Right. And maybe that comes from consumer capital, capitalism, that to get an a, you need to be able to efficiently and effectively consume as much quote unquote knowledge as possible. You know, maybe we need to start inductively. We need to start with the questions. I think that that that if we start with the questions about you know why things are the way that they are.
Then we can gradually, you know, we can gradually build knowledge. This is a problem with our entire education system. I, you know, I think that we should be starting from a very, very early age by having kids decide what they want to learn. You know, like what, what, what is it that's important to you?
What's important to your family? What's important to your community? What, not just what's important, but what's absolutely necessary. You know the [00:30:00] Zapatistas in Southern Mexico, you know, they have a really good model for this because they have to have a model for it. You know, so it's in a way, I think that we need to start paying more attention to indigenous ways of education.
Because you know, it's all about, about learning to do and asking questions about why things are the way that they are so that ultimately You know, we can be able to change those things if we don't like them. You know, so I think we need to start asking broader questions about, you know, why do we live in a world with nuclear weapons?
You know, in ninth grade, I think that that's a great, you know, walking at the beginning of the year. You're a teacher. Start with that question and then build the rest of, of the, of the knowledge around it. You know, ultimately you're going to, you're going to engage with the concept of a cold war. You're going to engage with the concept of you know, of colonialism.
And conflict [00:31:00] and know, exploitation, you're going to be talking about you know, ways that, that, that superpowers have impacted lives around the world. All of that comes in later, but right, you've already gotten at that point, their interest, you've already piqued their interest and they're already thinking about higher level concepts.
And then it's like plug and play. So I, you know, to answer your question, I think that we have it in verse. Okay. You know, we have to start with, with, with, with students and we have to start with why.
Ola: You know, just a quick comment before Vin's question, and I really loved the end of your last response with, we have to start with why.
I can only just imagine some of the RAND corporation, the Terran specialists, perhaps trying to answer a sequence of, five why questions from ninth graders before the logic of deterrence completely breaks down in their responses. I think that's also a way to, to set up old accountability. I'm
Vin: curious about [00:32:00] who has inspired you throughout your life.
Whether it's people in history, whether it's family and ancestry, whether it's things that have happened in history, maybe it's been teachers, but to kind of form your So what was your ideology and who you are and why you chose this path instead of, say, you know, being, I don't know, in the business world and, you know, screwing people over for money, etc.
Like, what was that? You know, we've been to Hiroshima and Nagasaki together. So what are your influences as far as, especially with the nuclear disarmament piece, but in a general sense of kind of who, how you became Eric Singer?
Eric: Well, I mean, as you well know, you know, we had this great professor in college, Peter Kuznick you know, who really fueled my, my anti nuclear activism. I remember walking into my first class with him first semester freshman year at American University in 1995. [00:33:00] And, you know, it wasn't anti nuclear stuff.
We were talking about Christopher Columbus. And, you know, he gave this great lecture about how Christopher Columbus was this you know, genocidal, insane maniac. And I, coming from a a pretty centrist, suburban high school, I mean, I had never heard that, that kind of thing. Narrative before. So, you know, I think that it was it was not just Peter.
I mean, it was a collection of really amazing historians at American University, including he's now dead. But Bob Griffith you know, Bob Griffith was was just so positive. Robert Griffith you know, so positive and so encouraging. You know, at the time, I didn't think I could ever write a dissertation, much less a young readers book.
And he's like, you know, yes, you can. You know, you just have to really, you know, you really got to get passionate about something. You know, so, so there were people in college who really fueled me. I, you know, as I mentioned earlier I had some great high school teachers that one teacher, you know, who was talking about the [00:34:00] fall of the Soviet Union, Tom Hockstra.
You know, he He got me to start thinking beyond the four walls of the classroom and beyond my little house and beyond my little life about, you know, about what was going on in the world and why it was important. But ultimately, like, It always came from within me. I always felt like something was wrong.
At every stage in my life, something was wrong about the suburban existence. Something was wrong about the fact that we needed gasoline to get from point A to point B. You know, something was wrong about the fact that, you know, that we're okay living in a world where people bomb each other, where people kill each other with guns.
None of that ever made any damn bit of sense to me. And I know I sound like in, you know, like very idealistic or naive and, you know, I, as a historian, I know how naive some of those thoughts can be. You know, really are. But I [00:35:00] always believed that, you know, there, there can be a different kind of existence and there can be a different kind of world.
And so at every stage in my life, when other people around me seem to just be accepting things, I'm like, I don't accept that. I'm not going to go along with that. Sometimes it drives me crazy. You know, I, but ultimately, like, you know, I, I think it's important to, to, to really galvanize knowledge and to galvanize activism from an early age.
Because there are so many people out there who are just sort of like waiting for it and they need to be stimulated like I was.
Vin: I would like to know, in adapting the Young Readers edition, how much you decided To talk about what actually happens with the atomic bombings, because that is a criticism, right or wrong, that some people had with Oppenheim, with Nolan's films, that they actually don't show the atomic bombings.
What goes on in Japan. And so I'd like to know when you did this, how much was that a conscious [00:36:00] decision and what, how you tackled that issue?
Eric: I started the book with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And, and not just you know, I, I picked Hibakusha stories from kids. The, the first one was the, the Hiroshima experience was derived directly from John Hersey's account. Where I, I, I described what it was like for a in that case, I, I guess it was a 12 year old you know, who experienced, you know, who was really thrown out of, out of his bed you know, across the room in Nagasaki, you know, it was about a family who was separated, a 10 year old child who was separated from his parents and he, you know, he ended up like going all across the city to look for his parents.
How many kids can imagine, you know, being in such a horrific situation where, where people are dead and dying around you and everything is on fire and your house is gone and your family's been split up and you know, you've got to find them. I [00:37:00] mean, this, this, this story was just so, you know, gut wrenching.
And I thought that it was important for, you know, for it to be told. You know, I think that Nolan, that, that. That scene in the Oppenheimer movie where, you know you know, Oppenheimer is at the front of the auditorium in Los Alamos and he's, he's obviously got, you know, very serious misgivings about you know, about, about being celebratory at that moment.
Oppenheimer: It's too soon to, it's too soon to determine what the results of the bombing are.
But I'll bet the Japanese didn't like it.
Eric: And then all of a sudden, you know, the, the noise just goes crazy and people's skin is, you know, the, the, the audience, people in the audience, their skin is falling off. And, you know, you've got people crying and you've got people outside puking in the [00:38:00] bushes. You know, I think for an adult audience, that was a really, really good, that was really, really effective, at least for me it was, but I think for, for, for an audience of young readers, you really have to explain what happened at Hiroshima directly and vividly because they're not going to know any other way.
I guarantee you the textbook is not going to do a great job describing it. And, I mean, the reality is that a lot of teachers still don't even get to World War II in the curriculum. So this could be the first time that kids of this age are, you know, really exposed to, you know, the horrors of nuclear war.
And so I tried to, as best I could, make an explicit, you know, attempt. To describe what it was like, I also spent a good amount of time. I wrote a whole chapter about downwinders and about the impact of the Trinity test and other tests on people, not just in New Mexico and parts of the Southwest [00:39:00] United States, but also people, you know, who are impacted out in the South Pacific.
And about where all of that fallout sort of went, the cancers that, that, that people had to deal with the, you know, the generational genetic impact of nuclear testing. I, I told some vivid stories again, about young people, 12 year olds, you know, who had to contend with you know, with literally the, the, the fallout of nuclear weapons.
So I think it's really, really important when you're writing for young, young readers to. explicate the human impact. And I, I hope that I've done a good enough job in this edition.
Ola: , I have one final question for you today, and that is, we are all eager to know, and I'm sure our audience are eager to know, if you have a new project in the pipeline that you wish to share with us. And what is next for you in bringing history to life for new generations?
Eric: We're at, we're at 80 years now, right? 80 [00:40:00] years since 1945. And how have nuclear weapons impacted the lives of children? Not just physically, you know, not just hibakusha, not just downwinders. But also, how did kids experience the cold war psychologically, how do kids, you know, deal with the prospect of nuclear annihilation psychologically you know, where, what kind of activism, are we dealing with among younger people.
You know, younger generations and how do young activists translate their anxieties and translate, you know what, what has happened to them in some cases physically and other cases psychologically. you know, into into action, you know, into something that is going to yield tangible results and hopefully change the world.
And so I [00:41:00] envision a book of case studies that deal with you know, , how nuclear weapons and the nuclear arms race, you know, has has permanently impacted the You know, the psyche of the, of the, of the American, in this case, the American child.
Vin: I want to thank you so much for joining us, Eric. You know, your work, bridging the gap between, you know, dense historical scholarship and, and, and accessible education is, is such important work. Please tell the audience where they can get the new book in 2025. Is it up for pre order? Where can they find it?
And so we can make sure as many, it gets in the hands of as many people as possible.
Eric: So the book is called Oppenheimer and the Atomic Bomb. And it is available on on Amazon on Barnes and Noble. You can get it at Target, Walmart. I think in Canada, it's on the Indigo website. It's also, you can link to any of those websites from the Penguin Random House page for Oppenheimer and the Atomic Bomb.
[00:42:00] May 13th of 2025 is the release date, but it's up for pre order right now. And anybody who buys it and reads it, I'd love to hear what you think about it. You know, feel free to look me up online and send me an email.
Ola: That will be fantastic. I'm sure it will be such a critical resource for a lot of our listeners and followers.
Thank you so much, Eric, for sharing your insights and experiences with us today. And thank you to all our listeners for tuning in until next time. Keep questioning, keep learning and keep your minds blown.
Minds Blown. Is produced by Jackson Street Collective and made possible by Lex International. [00:43:00]